歪果仁看中国

为什么台湾在LGBT问题上比大陆进步?

Why is Taiwan more progressive on LGBT issues compared to China?

龙腾网/ 凌☆♂宇 2018-07-30 17:11:54
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台湾可以花时间,把公众的注意力集中在个人的问题上,而中国不能。中国的榜单周围国家是保加利亚、哈萨克斯坦、墨西哥、巴西、俄罗斯。哪一个国家在LGBT问题上要更显进步?
为什么台湾在LGBT问题上比中国(大陆)进步?

评论翻译

GDP per capita in Taiwan is $22,453, and in China it’s $8,113, according to IMF 2016. List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita

So Taiwan can afford to spend the time and focus public attention on where one puts one’s dick, and China can’t. The countries at around China’s level are Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Mexico, Brazil, Russia. Which one of these are “more progressive on LGBT issues”?

There are a host of issues that are mostly developed-country issues. Like LGBT, smoking weed, animal cruelty, etc. Not that they are not legitimate issues FOR THEIR PEOPLE, but you basically looking at a scenario where you have one kid growing up devouring meat that only comes in in perfect square shape, preaching animal cruelty to some other kid who hardly has a bite to eat, and was a child soldier since 9, watching his fellow solders raping and looting. It would have been hilarious if it’s not so sad.

据国际货币基金组织(IMF)2016年的数据,台湾人均GDP为22453美元,中国为8113美元。这是按人均GDP(名义)计算的国家名单。

因此,台湾可以花时间,把公众的注意力集中在个人的问题上,而中国不能。中国的榜单周围国家是保加利亚、哈萨克斯坦、墨西哥、巴西、俄罗斯。哪一个国家在LGBT问题上要更显进步?

很多问题都是发达国家的问题。就像LGBT(译者加:即男同,女同,双性恋,跨性别者),吸烟,虐待动物,等等。对于人民,这些东西考虑的不是合法与否,而是你可以想象一个场景,你有一个孩子在成长的过程中,吃的肉都是完美的方形,却向其他几乎没有吃过东西的孩子灌输不能虐待动物的观念,而那个没有吃过什么东西的孩子从9岁起,就成了一名童兵,会看着他的同伴们强奸和抢劫。如果这样对比不是悲伤,那一定是很滑稽的。

Right now, China wants to concentrate on these developmental issues: move up the economic value chain, figure out how to innovate, eliminate extreme poverty, and reduce inequality. The goal is to swing 100 million people out of extreme poverty, and move 300 million people from low-productivity to high-productivity. And these things can’t wait. It’s easier to reduce inequality if you can tell the rich people that “you’ll be growing at 3% a year” and the poor people that “you’ll be growing at 8% a year”. It’s near impossible if the overall growth has already stopped, and the only way to reduce inequality is to take money out of the rich and give it to the poor. Right now, they have to work out the policies and the social consensus to be either the Nordic countries, or Latin America. This can’t wait.

The tool the Chinese uses is the CCP, thus the current anti-corruption and internal cleansing. They need tools that are clean, sharp, and precise. The environment it needs is peace and trade, thus all her foreign policy initiatives are aimed at this result. Where you put your dick is so far below the radar it’s laughable, when there are still something like 50 million Chinese living under $2 a day.

And frankly, what’s so “progressive” about Taiwan’s LGBT issues? They are not even as “progressive” as ancient Sparta. I mean, if you really want to get on the front page worldwide, how about making your military barracks practice “brotherly love” like the Spartans? The Spartans had done this since like 900 BC… LOL!

为什么台湾在LGBT问题上比中国(大陆)进步?

现在,中国想要把注意力集中在这些发展的问题上:提升经济价值链,找出创新,消除极端贫困,减少不平等。目标是使1亿人摆脱赤贫,并将3亿人从低生产力转移到高生产力。而这些事情是不能等待的。如果你能说服富人“你每年将以3%的速度增长”,而穷人“你将以每年8%的速度增长”,那就更容易减少不平等。但如果整体经济增长已经停止,而减少不平等的唯一途径是把钱从富人手里拿出来给穷人,这几乎是不可能的。现在,要么是北欧国家,要么是拉丁美洲,他们都等不及了,去制定出政策和社会共识以应对于此。

领导中国的是CCP,因此当前的目标是反腐败和内部清洗。他们需要干净、锋利和精确的工具。它所需要的环境是和平与贸易,因此它所有的外交政策倡议都是针对这一结果的。当有大约5000万中国人生活在每天2美元以下的时候,你却把你的小jj放在雷达下(公共视野下),这是很可笑的。

坦白地说,台湾LGBT问题的“进步”是什么?它们甚至不像古代斯巴达那样“进步”。我的意思是,如果你真的想登上世界的头版,那么让你的军营实行像斯巴达人一样的“兄弟般的爱”。如何?斯巴达人在公元前900年就做到了…哈哈!

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On top of the excellent answers here, I wanna write something based on what I read from Chinese/Taiwanese news media recently.

What’s been said over there is basically: Taiwan wants to make money off the LGBT tourism, calling it “rainbow economy”.

News link in Chinese, from Taiwanese media from June 2017: 

And from Malaysian news:

A quick translation of the text:

In the beginning of the year, LGBT-representatives, professional travellers and media visited Taiwan to explore. According to the local travel agencies, the purchasing power of LGBT-community is not to be taken lightly.

As reported by the Taiwanese newspaper “China Times", the global LGBT tourism market increases by 10% annually, approaching 370 millions USD per year. This is a highly sought-after consumer group by many countries and regions.

Some Taiwanese travel agencies believe that LGBT-tourism offers huge business opportunities. Large numbers of LGBT people will specifically visit other countries/regions that legalised gay-marriage. Now that Taiwan is the first Asian region with legalised gay marriage, it will naturally attract some foreign LGBT-visitors to marry in Taiwan, creating a “rainbow economy”.

在这里,我想根据我最近从中国或台湾的新闻媒体读到的东西来写一些东西。

这里所说的基本上是:台湾想要从LGBT旅游中赚钱,称其为“彩虹经济”。

在中国新闻链接,台湾媒体2017年6月:彩虹经济可观光,观光局邀同志來玩

和马来西亚的新闻:中国打压下另谋出路,台湾要搞“彩虹经济”

快速翻译原文:

今年年初,lgbt代表、专业旅行者和媒体访问台湾进行探索。根据当地旅行社的说法,lgbt社区的购买力不容轻视。

据台湾《中国时报》报道,全球LGBT旅游市场每年增长10%,达到每年3.7亿美元。这是许多国家和地区广受欢迎的消费群体。

一些台湾旅行社认为,lgbt旅游提供了巨大的商机。大量的LGBT人群将会特别访问合法化同性恋婚姻的其他国家/地区。既然台湾是第一个将同性恋婚姻合法化的亚洲地区,它自然会吸引一些外国同性恋者到台湾结婚,创造一个“彩虹经济”。

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I think the root of the difference is that Taiwan necessarily embraced traditional liberal attitudes of valuation of individual rights as a part of its political reform process over the period from the 1970s to the 1990s. Those values have a logic that, when expressed politically, inevitably lead to protection of minority rights in every sphere of life — sexual, economic, political, artistic, etc. That’s just how liberty works in a society with a functioning, open government and real rule of law.

I think Paul Denlinger has correctly described how the ruling Communist Party on the mainland has come to see liberalism (again, using the word in its original meaning) as “Western” and just about every expression or idea associated with “liberalism” as a dangerous mental infection of anti-Chinese ideas aimed at “hurting China.” This view is becoming increasingly accepted across all segments of Chinese society. Promotion of liberal values in China is increasingly coming to be seen as, at best, naively being the tool of “Western imperialism.” More and more often, anyone who advocates liberal ideas in China is assumed to be “on the payroll of the CIA” or some front for Western (usually American) subversion of China.

我认为差异的根源在于,台湾必须接受传统的自由主义者对于个人价值权利的态度,作为70年代至90年代政治改革进程的一部分。 (请注意,正如世界上除了美国以外的任何地方所理解的那样,我使用“自由主义”一词来表示“重视个人的自由”。)这些价值观有一个逻辑,即当政治表达时,必然导致在生活的各个领域保护少数人的权利 - 性,经济,政治,艺术等等。这就是自由在一个运转良好,开放的政府和真正的法治的社会里的作用。

我认为保罗·丹林格已经正确地描述了大陆执政的cp党如何把自由主义看作是“西方的”,而把与“自由主义”有关的每一个表达或想法视为危险的精神上的“反华”思想,会导致“伤害中国”的。这种观点正在越来越多地被中国社会所接受。在中国,自由主义价值观的提升,越来越天真地被认为是“西方帝国主义”的工具。越来越多的人认为,任何在中国主张自由主义思想的人都是“在中央情报局的工资单上“或者是西方(通常是美国)颠覆中国的前线。

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Taiwan is trying to graft modern day Anglo values and beliefs awkwardly into its own Chinese cultural heritage for western sympathy which results in the populace focusing on distractions such as the LGBT movement while ignoring its stagnant economy. It's almost like a drug to escape from reality.

This dates back to Sun Yat-Sen, the devoted ‘Methodist Christians’ Soong sisters and Chiang Kai-shek, all of whom basically wants modernisation of China by Westenisation. Suffice to say, it's not working very well. At least the Japanese pretended to have a Westernised political system to curry favours with the US while it kept its feudal society unchanged (good on them).

Chinese belief is one of non interference, live and let live. The LGBT is a non issue in Mainland China as nobody really cares if you are not straight as long as you don't bother anyone else.

IMHO In Taiwan, its jumping on the latest unicorn fad just to make itself feel important and another reason to feel superior to the mainlanders as they are more westernised and therefore better/more enlightened.

It's the same old same old Chiang Kai Shek’s bag of tricks of ‘look Merican, I’m just like you, the Chinese people want to become just like westerners, they can't wait to become , now give me money and military aid to defeat ’. Today the enemy is mainlanders, the belief is LGBT, used to be Japan and Christianity.

为什么台湾在LGBT问题上比中国(大陆)进步?

台湾正试图将现代盎格鲁的价值观和信仰,尴尬地融入到自己的中国文化遗产中,寄希望引起西方人的同情,导致民众聚焦于LGBT运动而分心,从而忽视了经济的停滞。这几乎就像一种逃避现实的药物。

这可以追溯到孙中山,他们都是基督教徒,以及卫理公会(译者加:基督教新教主要宗派之一)的宋氏姐妹和蒋介石,他们基本上都想通过西方化来实现中国的现代化。可以这么说,这种方式并不好。至少日本人假装有一个西化的政治体系来与美国合作,同时保持其封建社会不变(对他们有利)。

中国人的信仰是不干涉,活着。 LGBT在中国大陆并不是什么问题,只要你不打扰其他人,没有人会真正关心你。

恕我直言台湾在台湾,它跳跃在最新的独角兽热潮中,只是为了让自己感到重要,另一个理由感觉是优于大陆,因为他们更西化,因此更好/更开明。

这和老蒋介石的手法一样,“看看美利坚,我就跟你们一样,中国人想成为西方人,他们迫不及待要成为了。”在这里插入盎格鲁信仰“——给我钱和军事援助'。今天的敌人是内地人,信仰是LGBT,曾经是日本和基督教。

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Geez, can we stop with all the “it's politics” replies?

That makes my 10 hour long parade walk in Taipei Gay Pride seem like a morning jog…

Being a supporter of LGBT rights in Taiwan, I also have friends in China (PRC) trying to fight for their rights, too. Believe me, citizens on both sides are trying hard. However, Taiwan is more progressive for now.

Here are reasons I've concluded

Taiwan has a developed economy. This means we can procede to the stage of pursuing more civil rights.

Taiwan’s size. The PRC is much larger by size.

If 10% of the population in Taiwan disagrees, we will have at most parades to show disagreement (true example: 護家盟, a Christian Group against same-sex marriage). These people can choose to not vote for the same government next year, but since they're only 10%, no big deal.

If 10% of the population in Mainland China disagrees (that's 138 million people by the way), the CCP will have a huge bunch of unsatisfied Chinese. That's going to affect their image pretty badly, making it harder to rule the country.

Taiwan is a democracy. We get to decide what we want. If this government doesn't legalize same-sex marriage, we can choose to not vote for it next year.

So yes,

Taiwan is more progressive on LGBT rights.

哎呀,可以停止所有的“这是关于政治”的答复吗?

这让我在台北,骄傲的长达十个小时的同性恋游行似乎像晨跑...

作为台湾同性恋权利的支持者,我也有在中国的朋友争取自己的权利。相信我,两边的公民都在努力。不过,台湾现在比较进步。

这是我得出的结论的原因

台湾经济发达。这意味着我们进入追求更多公民权利的阶段。

台湾要比中国的规模要小得多。

如果台湾有10%的人不同意,我们最多可以举行游行示威(真实的例子:护家盟,基督教团体反对同性婚姻)。这些人可以选择明年不投票给同一个政府,但由于他们只有10%,没有什么大不了的。

如果中国大陆有10%的人不同意(那是1.38亿人),中共会有一大堆不满意的中国人。这将严重影响他们的形象,使得统治国家变得更加困难。

台湾是一个民主国家。我们可以决定我们想要什么。如果这个政府不把同性婚姻合法化,我们可以选择明年不投票。

所以是的,

台湾在LGBT权利方面更为进步。

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Taiwan government likes flaunting LGBT issues - hmm, like many governments in the US.

China is mostly atheist, and Taiwan is Buddhist/Taoist/non-religious/Christian, in that order. China’s atheist and non-Christian/Catholic culture seems like it would be tolerant towards stuff like LGBT.

China, and all cultures, have a long, ancient history of LGBT. You’re LGBT or not depending on whether your current sociocultural sphere condones, embraces, or forbids it. 

Jin Xing, an MtF dancer from China (Korean parents), said it was much easier to have gender reassignment surgery in China in the 90s than the US at the time.

台湾政府喜欢炫耀关于LGBT的问题 - 嗯,就像美国的许多政府一样。

中国大部分是无神论者,台湾是佛教/道教/非宗教/基督徒。 中国的无神论者和非基督教/天主教文化似乎对LGBT这样的东西是宽容的。

中国和其所有的文化,都有着悠久的LGBT历史。 你是否同性恋,取决于你目前的社会文化领域是否宽恕,接纳或禁止。 

来自中国的MtF舞者金星(朝鲜族父母)表示,90年代在中国进行性别转换手术要比当时的美国容易得多。

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1.Mainland law system is not fully independent as the USA’s. If mainland pass a law, that means the whole center government support or oppose sth.

2. there are 56 ethnics in mainland. It is not accurate that the culture is similar. Especially for the Tibetans and Muslims,almost all of them oppose LGBT.

3. When we discuss sth about mainland and Taiwan,see Taiwan as a province then you will understand some differences. China is too huge.Many things in different provinces are too different.

4.The essence of LGBT is a political issue rather than a cultural issue.

1。大陆法系不是像美国可以有独立法律。如果大陆通过一项法律,那意味着整个中央政府支持或反对某事。

2。大陆有56个民族。文化的相似性是不确定的。特别是对于藏族和穆斯林,几乎都反对同性恋。

3,当我们讨论大陆和台湾时,把台湾看成一个省,你就会明白一些不同。中国太大了。在不同的省份有许多不同的东西。

4,LGBT的本质是一个政治问题,而不是一个文化问题。

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The center piece of current Taiwan policy is to gain west support, whatever it takes, no matter how small it is.

So do not be surprised by any moves which inline Taiwan to western standard.

The funny part is by recognizing LGBT marriage, it literally irritates Trump the most which is the person Taiwan wants to please the most.

TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE WON'T ACKNOWLEDGE JUNE AS LGBT PRIDE MONTH,

现在的台湾政策的核心,就是要得到西方的支持,不管它多小。

所以,不要把台湾这个以西方为标准的举动感到惊讶。

有趣的部分通过承认LGBT婚姻后,最让台湾想要接近的又是最恼火的特朗普。

TRUMP的白宫不会承认6月为LGBT骄傲月。

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Earlier-developed societies have had time to become liberal, recently developed societies tend to be more conservative. Often both pride themselves on the difference.

很早发达的社会有时间成为自由主义的,最近发达的社会往往都比较保守。 通常都以自己的差异为荣。
本文来源:https://www.quora.com
台湾 LGBT 进步 大陆

免责声明:本文编译自互联网,不代表《歪果仁看中国》的观点和立场。

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